Jobe, I talked with my brother this morning and he basically gave me the same advice as you. He has first hand experience with knee injuries. He used to race motocross and in one fall he hyperextended ( knee bending the opposite direction its supposed to :-( ) his knee and had to have micro surgery on it. Anyway he said I probably just pinched some cartilage a bit. I am happy to say that my knee is much improved this morning and I believe that I will be able to leave the drugs behind :-) At this rate I 'll be back hiking to OZ in no time :-) Jobe I may be a bit confused about this meeting and group you appear to be talking about. Since we have been suggesting getting together as a group I thought that we would be starting one group. Is what your suggesting, this DCCB group, something seperate from what we have been talking about ? It seems so because I think all the memebers of any group we have suggested would want to have some input on a name for the group. Of course I'm not suggesting that you should not start a group of your own. I'm just trying to figure out if thats what your talking about. Well I'm going to try to contact Brad Burns ( if he is the appropriate Forestry person ) to run by him what we have been talking about. Maybe there is a phone number for him at Katrina's site. I think we should all keep in mind in trying this group idea that we should just do what we can and see what happens. Each person should be allowed to be involved to the extent they wish. For myself I want it to remain something I can enjoy as a labor of love for OZ and if the only thing that ever came out of it is that we became closer friends then I would say it was worth the effort. I do however think we can come up with things to do that will benifit the springs. One simple thing we can do is to casually bring up in conversation at the springs the ideas of what we are trying to accomplish, a collection of people, coming together to help the springs. In this way, more people I would think, will find they have the same interest and may choose to be involved also. Well the 1000 mile journey begins with one step. When will that first meeting be ?