Re: Are Kids allowed?

Wizard, I fully agree with you in rejecting the idea that children, couples, or single women have a greater right to the pools than unaccompanied men. Similarly, I also fully agree with you in rejecting the idea that a single man should simply move on, no matter what, if he comes upon a pool with children, a woman, or a couple in it, or that he should suddenly get out of the pool he is in if a couple, female, or child gets in. And I also fully agree with you in rejecting the idea that a single man should be expected to get out of a pool "just because" (as you have sometimes put it) a couple indicates to him that they would like some alone time, either for non-sexual romantic interests or merely to experience that priceless feeling of being all by themselves for a few minutes in a hotspring in nature.

What's more, I imagine that Mellowguy fully agrees with you in rejecting those ideas as well.

The problem is, those ideas you are rejecting are not the ideas I have put forward in this forum, let alone on this subject of children and pedophiles. Nor do I believe are they the ideas Mellowguy has put forward on this topic or in the related thread on etiquette. With due respect, although you have posted your rejection of the foregoing ideas repeatedly on these topics, for the most part you have only been attacking those exaggerated ideas which no one holds ["strawmen"]. For the most part, and I am sorry to say this, you have been completely evading the real questions at hand. Your tendency has been to cut out the critical specifics of the questions, hold up solely what is left, exaggerate that, rotate it 180 degrees [e.g., from a question of courtesy to a question of "rights"], and then attack the artificial mold you have created.

But I am not going to be one to repeat the real questions and waste yet more words on this silliness. You can go back and read the real questions yourself, in particular the question whether it would be courteous (not mandatory, just courteous) for an unaccompanied male to let a couple have just 5 or 10 minutes to enjoy a pool by themselves if the man had already spent several hours sitting in the pool with them, at times when DCHS was relatively uncrowded, and if the couple (or anyone!) indicated they would appreciate just that small bit of time in a natural hotspring outside the visual scope of a stranger sitting a few feet from them (or from her or him).

When it comes to the particular topic of children versus pedophiles, it is especially dangerous to not expect naked unaccompanied men to give children at hotsprings any space. Because of the real problem of pedophiles, most parents would go into alert and feel anxious when an unknown naked man plops down into a pool within touching distance of their child. It would make most parents, who are protective of their child merely in the proper degree, unable to really relax and enjoy themselves. Courteous men would not want to inject that anxiety and possible misunderstanding into their fellow users of hotsprings. Callous ones would not care.

If anything, it is callous behavior that authorities could seize upon to end DCHS as we know it, not courtesy.

Courteous men (and women) are in the majority, I do believe. If we could take a poll, I would suggest that it include not just single men at DCHS (as you've suggested) but couples and women as well, from hotsprings everywhere. Here are some samples of the majority view:

"Be extremely respectful of couples and family groups. The protective urge comes to fore when an unaccompanied male appears, strips and slips into a pool with young children or wives and girlfriends. Again, ask. Or seek another pool if possible."

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11

"Respect other people's privacy....Don't monopolize a person's time unless the welcome mat is out. Recognize when you are unwelcome." (Bold in original.)

http://www.deepcreekvolunteers.com/brochure.pdf

"Sungirl, I agree with your statements....If juveniles are at the springs I am certainly wearing swimming attire...Visitors to the Springs have a responsibility to understand the other visitors."

http://deepcreekhotsprings.net/dchs/forum/read.php?1,19878,19881#msg-19881

"[T]here are guys so offensively horny that barbed wire wouldn't keep them away. When I encountered people like that I would ask them to move on upstream or downstream and find their own place, the one my lady and I occupy is not available."

http://deepcreekhotsprings.net/dchs/forum/read.php?1,19758,19763#msg-19763

"I am sure there is some common ground here. If you want private time, or don't want to talk to someone then that's cool, but just say so in a polite way. 'Hey friend, nice meeting you, talk to later OK?'"

http://deepcreekhotsprings.net/dchs/forum/read.php?1,19758,19801#msg-19801

"Whenever I come upon a couple whether nude or not I always ask if it's alright to join them....I have not had an experience where I felt the couple needed some alone time, but I'm sure I wouldn't hesitate to find an excuse to go take a walk."

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1678

"If I show up at a spring with multiple pools (e.g. Cougar) and one is occupied by a couple that seems to enjoy their privacy, I typically choose another pool. Or more likely I move between hotter and cooler pools about every half hour, but don't linger with the couple. If I show up at a spring with only one pool (e.g. Deer Creek) and find it occupied by a couple, I will usually jump in anyway but make my stay shorter than if I had the pool to myself, so that they can have some alone time....[¶] Privacy can be granted by a courteous visitor but can't reasonably be expected at a public spring. Ogling, on the other hand, is bad etiquette regardless of whether it lasts a few minutes or a few hours."

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1678

"Mellow Guy---Yes---I know exactly what you are saying---In a perfect world that would be great---In the real world, Good Luck---"

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1678

"Mellow Guy, a good point you have.... I tend to agree that privacy should be granted when granting it doesn't detract from my own soaking experience (i.e. require me to leave or to soak in a cold pool)."

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1678

"If ... I feel I could bother someone else I wear a suit."

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1678

"I asked them to let me know whenever they were done with the pool, and went back to my car that was parked 300 yards away and above the hill to give them some privacy. ...[Then] I used the west pool in the metal bin instead.... I had time that trip, so not using the center pool didn't mean much difference. [¶] Next morning, they were gone and I got to use the center pool for about an hour, until another couple came arrived. I politely excused myself (with swim trunks) and went back to my tent and changed."

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1678

"Hi Rick, I was contemplating posting the hot springs etiquette rules that we include in our Deep Creek Volunteers brochure, but they are essentially identical to your excellent Onsen 'rules'."

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1679

"[W]hat do you do if there's no room for you or say there is a cuddling couple in it? [¶] And my other question is do folks go and take a look-see at the pool before they get in to see if people are clothed or not?"

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1679

"I think that it would be okay to politely ask how long they will be soaking? Then tell them you are going to hike/swim/sunbathe and come back or...whatever fits your schedule. This lets people know that you would like to soak. If they have good etiqutte they will finish up their soak and let the next person in. And about the cuddling couple... Sometimes couples are there to enjoy time together alone, other times they enjoy good company, don't assume."

http://www.soakersforum.com/3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1679



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2010 10:30PM by sungirl2.