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Re: Improving Off-road Compliance

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July 13, 2007 02:30PM
I think Rick's post says it sufficiently. It may not make sense to YOU, OMG, but it does make sense to land managers who have to balance many competing interests. The concept of reasonable and legitimate public access across some private property has been around almost as long as the concept of private property itself, about a millennia. It's roots are in Common Law, originating in the British Isles, as far as our system is concerned. Here in California, we endured a brief period where property owners did not have to mark their territory in any way. It was a nightmare in the court system, has been rescinded, and I would venture a guess that we're not headed back that way as a State. Ordinance 3973 heads us back that way in San Bernardino County. It requires that an open and unmarked plot of private land in the middle of public lands be known to anyone who may set foot or tire there, and places an unreasonable burden of research and permission gathering in order to cross such pieces of private property legally.

It is reasonable to expect an owner, who does not want people on their land, to place signs every 1/3 mile or so. They don't have to be ugly or unsightly, and it's the law everywhere except San Bernardino County. As you may know, local ordinances that conflict with either State or Federal laws are null and void.

Part of the problem here is that all private land is not the same. Most of it does not have the owner's home on it. The vast majority of private acreage has no structure on it at all, no identifying features. In the absence of fences or signs, the law assumes that the owner simply doesn't care about it as anything other than an investment or family heirloom, or a business transaction. Certainly, this is not true of all private lands, but is true in a majority of areas where OHV use is common.

Example? In Kern County (I realize this is not affected by 3973), along Twenty Mule Team Road between California City and Red Mountain, there is a patchwork of public and private lands. Without a survey crew, it's literally impossible to verify where the boundaries of public and private lands are. Some are only an acre or less. Some are 100 acres. Most private land belongs to Catellus, and there is no possible way to gain permission to recreate on their lands, and no law enforcement officer can be certain enough of the boundaries to write a citation anyway. Identifying private property while on the ground is so often impossible, that such a law cannot be enforced unless everyone knows the boundary. That's why signs and fences are so important. It lends certainty to the law, and provides for the Court's "reasonable man" doctrine.
SubjectAuthorViewsPosted

Improving Off-road Compliance

mojavegreen 1792July 09, 2007 10:33AM

Re: Improving Off-road Compliance

mojavegreen 1089July 09, 2007 10:50AM

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LaughingBear 1134July 09, 2007 12:15PM

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Allen 1123July 09, 2007 04:27PM

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Allen 1250July 09, 2007 05:08PM

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Wizard 1130July 09, 2007 10:19PM

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LaughingBear 1174July 10, 2007 08:34AM

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mojavegreen 1166July 10, 2007 10:51AM

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Allen 1138July 10, 2007 03:19PM

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mojavegreen 1189July 10, 2007 05:33PM

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Allen 1730July 11, 2007 04:47PM

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mojavegreen 934July 12, 2007 09:47AM

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Big Ed 1195July 12, 2007 09:23PM

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mojavegreen 1193July 13, 2007 09:06AM

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Big Ed 1108July 13, 2007 12:29PM

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mojavegreen 1106July 13, 2007 05:43PM

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Big Ed 1032July 13, 2007 05:50PM

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mojavegreen 1081July 13, 2007 06:42PM

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LaughingBear 1155July 10, 2007 07:14PM

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Paul P. 1726July 11, 2007 12:26PM

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LaughingBear 1134July 11, 2007 02:32PM

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Allen 1244July 11, 2007 02:48PM

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LaughingBear 1123July 11, 2007 03:55PM

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Allen 1148July 11, 2007 04:33PM

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mojavegreen 1208July 12, 2007 10:28AM

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Allen 1154July 12, 2007 06:32PM

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mojavegreen 1201July 13, 2007 09:52AM

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OMG 1105July 12, 2007 10:37PM

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Rick 1271July 12, 2007 11:00PM

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OMG 1203July 13, 2007 11:34AM

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Rick 1080July 13, 2007 12:30PM

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mojavegreen 1090July 13, 2007 09:22AM

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OMG 1205July 13, 2007 11:50AM

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Paul P. 1203July 13, 2007 12:09PM

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Big Ed 1167July 13, 2007 12:42PM

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Big Ed 1198July 13, 2007 12:44PM

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Big Ed 1083July 13, 2007 01:05PM

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OMG 1044July 13, 2007 01:36PM

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mojavegreen 1041July 13, 2007 06:16PM

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Big Ed 1260July 13, 2007 10:49PM

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OMG 1222July 13, 2007 01:16PM

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Rick 1148July 13, 2007 12:44PM

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OMG 1686July 13, 2007 01:09PM

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Big Ed 1180July 13, 2007 02:30PM

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mojavegreen 1144July 13, 2007 06:24PM

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Big Ed 1130July 13, 2007 10:52PM

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mojavegreen 1133July 13, 2007 11:33PM

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Big Ed 1078July 14, 2007 11:37AM

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OMG 1220July 13, 2007 09:54PM

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Big Ed 1061July 13, 2007 11:00PM

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Big Ed 1158July 13, 2007 02:42PM

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mojavegreen 1710July 13, 2007 06:27PM

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mojavegreen 1228July 13, 2007 07:36PM

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Big Ed 1127July 13, 2007 11:05PM

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Big Ed 1184July 13, 2007 11:13PM

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mojavegreen 1095July 13, 2007 11:29PM

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Allen 1053July 14, 2007 06:52AM

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mojavegreen 1637July 14, 2007 10:01AM

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Big Ed 1162July 14, 2007 11:41AM

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LaughingBear 1146July 14, 2007 09:21PM

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Allen 1215July 15, 2007 03:30PM

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OMG 1168July 15, 2007 06:07PM

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OMG 1135July 15, 2007 06:16PM

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OMG 1455July 15, 2007 07:08PM

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Big Ed 1172July 15, 2007 07:42PM

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Rick 1123July 15, 2007 11:07PM

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Allen 1212July 16, 2007 09:55AM

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OMG 1146July 16, 2007 10:31AM

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OMG 1238July 15, 2007 07:32PM

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Big Ed 1712July 15, 2007 08:06PM

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Big Ed 1114July 15, 2007 09:40PM

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Big Ed 1184July 15, 2007 09:45PM

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mojavegreen 1150July 15, 2007 11:22PM

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Big Ed 1231July 16, 2007 09:17PM

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mojavegreen 1134July 16, 2007 10:21PM

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Big Ed 1117July 17, 2007 08:06AM

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mojavegreen 1219July 17, 2007 10:12AM

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Big Ed 1270July 17, 2007 09:01PM

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OMG 1177July 15, 2007 10:21PM

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Big Ed 1143July 16, 2007 09:18PM

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mojavegreen 1162July 16, 2007 10:41PM

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Big Ed 1104July 17, 2007 08:08AM

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OMG 1088July 17, 2007 12:18PM

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Big Ed 1119July 18, 2007 07:35AM

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mojavegreen 1125July 18, 2007 10:06AM

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Big Ed 1097July 18, 2007 10:45AM

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Big Ed 1154July 18, 2007 07:37AM

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mojavegreen 1151July 15, 2007 10:49PM

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Big Ed 1232July 16, 2007 09:19PM

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OMG 1229July 15, 2007 11:33PM

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mojavegreen 1236July 16, 2007 08:21AM

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LaughingBear 1089July 16, 2007 08:07AM

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Big Ed 1075July 16, 2007 05:24PM

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Big Ed 1787July 16, 2007 08:24PM

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Rick 1198July 16, 2007 08:39PM

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Big Ed 1135July 16, 2007 10:08PM

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Rick 1171July 16, 2007 11:55PM

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Big Ed 1213July 17, 2007 08:13AM

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romyluna65 1090July 17, 2007 08:59AM

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Rick 1216July 17, 2007 12:05PM

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Big Ed 1047July 17, 2007 08:42PM

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mojavegreen 1190July 17, 2007 11:15PM

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Big Ed 1280July 18, 2007 08:11AM

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romyluna65 1160July 18, 2007 10:30AM

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LaughingBear 1133July 16, 2007 11:43AM

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OMG 1150July 16, 2007 12:11PM

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Paul P. 1167July 16, 2007 12:31PM

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LaughingBear 1147July 16, 2007 07:16PM

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OMG 1065July 16, 2007 09:11PM

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OMG 1162July 16, 2007 09:20PM

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Big Ed 1676July 16, 2007 10:09PM

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mojavegreen 1057July 16, 2007 10:59PM

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Big Ed 1144July 17, 2007 08:22AM

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OMG 1356July 17, 2007 02:47PM

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Big Ed 1115July 17, 2007 08:38PM

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Rick 1326July 18, 2007 02:28AM

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Big Ed 1305July 18, 2007 08:31AM

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Rick 1134July 18, 2007 12:19PM

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Big Ed 1127July 18, 2007 01:30PM

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LaughingBear 1314July 17, 2007 07:40AM

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LaughingBear 1160July 17, 2007 08:15AM

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Big Ed 1115July 17, 2007 08:27AM

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Rick 1047July 17, 2007 12:09PM

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Big Ed 1086July 17, 2007 08:45PM

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Paul P. 1232July 17, 2007 09:29AM

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Paul P. 1323July 17, 2007 01:35PM

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Rick 1118July 17, 2007 01:39PM

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Big Ed 1297July 17, 2007 08:51PM

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LaughingBear 1173July 17, 2007 03:32PM

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Big Ed 1129July 17, 2007 09:06PM

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mojavegreen 1047July 17, 2007 10:55PM

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Big Ed 1127July 18, 2007 08:37AM

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mojavegreen 1068July 18, 2007 10:24AM

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Big Ed 1074July 18, 2007 10:58AM

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LaughingBear 1181July 18, 2007 08:15AM

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Big Ed 1101July 18, 2007 08:43AM

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Rick 1031July 18, 2007 03:37PM

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Big Ed 1237July 18, 2007 04:01PM

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Rick 1141July 18, 2007 05:37PM

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LaughingBear 1135July 18, 2007 02:02PM

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Big Ed 1184July 18, 2007 02:25PM

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LaughingBear 1226July 18, 2007 04:36PM

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Paul P. 971July 18, 2007 04:58PM

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Paul P. 1214July 18, 2007 05:49PM

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Allen 1110July 18, 2007 06:04PM

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Rick 1793July 18, 2007 10:32PM

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LaughingBear 1203July 18, 2007 06:00PM

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Allen 1238July 18, 2007 06:13PM

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LaughingBear 1257July 18, 2007 06:38PM

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OMG 1151July 12, 2007 10:58PM

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mojavegreen 1223July 13, 2007 10:12AM

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OMG 1081July 13, 2007 12:09PM



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